27: Are we born a leader or do we become a leader?

Kasia Szczesna (00:05)
Hi, good morning, welcome to the next episode of the Design Mentorship podcast. We are continuing the series on the topic of leadership and I would like to welcome my guests here. You already know Ania Piosik if you've listened to our last three recordings. Hi Anya. And welcome to the Age of Six today. Hi Aga. But if you could tell our listeners and listeners...

Anna Piosik (00:23)
Hi, Hi Kasia, Hi Aga.

Aga Sixes (00:28)
Sweetie! Cheer up girls!

Kasia Szczesna (00:33)
I know that these two sentences are a short form, but at least briefly tell you what you do on a daily basis if there are people who do not know you.

Aga Six (00:42)
Thanks. I think I should start with the fact that I wrote two books, because that's probably the most everyone will recognize me afterwards. One is called the umami strategy, the other is called become the leader you want. And on a daily basis, I support transformations, most often organizational, that is, I help companies create experience strategies and then translate them into activities in the organization.

And that's a bit of a consequence, because no strategy will work well without good leaders. I landed on this topic related to designing my own leadership.

Kasia Szczesna (01:17)
Great, this is today, especially since this topic that we have planned, although I am curious how this conversation will also turn out, precisely how we can project our role, our role as a leader and precisely this effective leadership, so that we can reflect all together here on this topic and precisely on the basis of your books and this last one, become the leader you want.

We would also like to refer here, but of course on the experiences of Your Anna and Your Aga, which may not be contained in this book. And we would like to discuss leadership, actually how to do it authentically from the leader, but also effectively, where we will influence not only the organization and such KPIs, but also effectively work with the team.

I think that's the starting point for our question. It's fun to start from the beginning and just how do you start building it? How do you start building your leadership style? and how do you know yourself in the context of this role? Tell me how to start doing this.

Aga Sixty (02:27)
All right, maybe I'll start. There's good news and bad news. That's how I'll start. The good news is that it's kind of like the whole basis of my book, become the leader you want, that no one is born a leader. There is no such thing as a born leader, just as there is no such thing as a born writer, or painter, or musician, etc.

In general, of course, you can have a little more skills and some talent going in this direction, but still 10% does it for us, while all the rest is hard work. And this is the bad news that leadership is actually... This is a school of life that never ends, because in fact every context, every situation makes it necessary to learn certain new things.

Of course, you have to learn them about the organization and so on, but first of all you have to learn these things about yourself. And this is, I would say, painful psychotherapy, because if a person does not agree with himself, it will be difficult to squeeze anything out of this leadership there.

Anna Piosik (03:37)
Well, I'll just say it again, because Aga says that we're not born with it, nor is it once and for all, is it? I sometimes work with letters and say that leadership is not designed once and for all, it is not planned once and for all, but what the situation, what the organization, what the team, it is different. And yet so about getting to know yourself, because I think that if someone becomes a leader, then they enter the path of personal development at all. That is, you write a book of such brutal honesty.

What I know, what I don't know, what I'm good at, what I'm not good at. And I think that's the moment when we get to the truth about ourselves and start to look at each other a little bit and get to know each other. Well, that's a good start to get started.

Aga Sixty (04:20)
Definitely. But you know what, I'll add to that, it's not enough that this leadership changes through the organization we're in, the situation we're in, the interaction we're in, but it's also changing with us together. Because I think of myself as such a budding leader there many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many years ago.

I was a different man. In general, it is difficult to compare that magician with this magician who is sitting in front of you today. Again, this is also a cool thing, because it allows you to let go of certain things and let go of certain habits and change them. But on the other hand, it's this story about it being an endless story, this leadership development.

Kasia Szczesna (05:02)
Or maybe it is?

Look, maybe we have a negative tone, but I'm already looking for the positive in all this, that on the one hand, if we put effort into something, we can also feel better, and on the other hand we can be a point of reference, just like Aga said that many, many years ago, I will put the point here that you changed your role, but also yourself, we change behaviors, so I think that maybe not a reference point from others, just a point of reference in time to myself, but you know, I also imagine this concept,

the organizational context, how many expectations there are from us and the market that educated us in training, which was supposed to give us this power to start, is just as you say that this change is happening all the time and we may not know, and looking at it from the side, we sometimes expect a lot of people from the leader that he knows everything, yes, he will do everything, he will always have energy. How to deal with it? But what about those restrictions, right? How to fight this as a leader, tell me.

Aga Sixtek (06:03)
You know what, I think I'd start

If you become a leader and this is not specific to Poland, it is specific I think globally, rarely anyone is prepared for this role. Very rare. I think probably saying that it's never too much, whereas very few people actually, when they first become a leader, have any... is led to that function. So most of the time it's kind of, you know, throwing it in deep water. So you're landing, I don't know...

someone has been promoted or someone has been laid off and someone needs to be replaced. You land in this situation. There is an English saying swim or sink, which means swim or drown. And a little there is such a situation in most cases. And often when I hear from young leaders about what overwhelms them or what they...

What is difficult for them is that recently I had one, I was leading such a group of young leaders at one of my clients and the boy says, you know what, when I read this book of yours and did these exercises and so on, it suddenly dawned on me that I was doing everything to make my team like me. Well, because this is a transition from such a function of being colleagues.

to, or a colleague, to the function of being a supervisor. And he tells us, it's not that they don't like me of course, but it's that I'm not for that, I don't have to solicit their sympathy, I have other tasks and other things are expected of me also from the organization. And this is the first challenge. And another, and what's more, I have the feeling that good...

Intensive leadership training only begins at a very high level. So this is already, that is, it is at the director level and so on and so on. The problem is that at this stage a lot of bad habits are already formed. So now there is a powerful problem that you have to unlearn these habits. And unlearning is worse than learning right the first time. And here I have this backstory, and you know that...

The question I always ask myself, I say, heck, means as if I understand why this is happening, because of course they focus on these most important leaders, but it would be possible to make their lives a little easier, as if they had received such a proper training beforehand.

Anna Piosik (08:33)
And to all this, I think it's fun to take the time. I think, assuming that I will become that leader very soon, I will enter the program, the training, I will learn and already be a leader, is also probably putting unnecessary pressure on myself. Because everyone in general thinks to myself the development process, the quacking process, working in therapy, working with a mentor takes time.

And it's not just that time when we actually talk, practice, learn, or talk to other leaders, but it's the time, I always say it, in between. When there is the most of this self-reflection, when I check at home the most, if it works for me, how it can work for me, so I also recently talked to the heads of leaders, such first time leaders and they say, we give them time and it's nice that they notice that it will not happen quickly.

that we simply have to become that leader in the same way that we work in therapy or in the coaching process.

Aga Six (09:33)
I still have this thought, as you said, about the coaching process or the therapy. That being said, I guess it takes two years to integrate things. So this is a very interesting observation that maybe... because I also often see, an example I had this situation, I was talking to a colleague who is the head of operations at Lufthansa. And he promoted the girl.

Anna Piosik (09:42)
Thank you.

Aga Six (10:01)
to the Leadership position. And we're, we're talking together and he's telling me, you know what, I have a problem because she's not working. And she says, I think I have to demote her. And I say, all right, Markus, how long is he in this position? He says, three months. I say, okay, and you gave her a mentor, you told her what to do, you told her how to do it, and he did, you know, his eyes got bigger and he said, well, yeah.

I mean, how can you expect her to be a great leader? How did you pull her out as a teammate that she is now supposed to manage, the team is in a mess because there was still such a situation that it was like this... for very many reasons it was a very difficult interpersonal situation, you put this girl in that position, you have very high goals and you did not give this girl any support. Sing or swim? Swim or swi... sync, right? And he's like, okay, okay, I think I know what to do.

Kasia Szczesna (10:58)
And just, you know, that's what you say to give yourself time, but I wonder, you know that if we give ourselves time even, whether it's therapy, or coaching, or mentoring, then we can't always expect the result either, right? At that time, and when she gives up, okay, we'll give him time or we'll give her time, but right away we want to have some, you know, result, because usually also...

We go into the topics of our behavior, history, so this self-reflection is a little lower there than achieving those goals that are already set for us. Here I also wonder to what extent organizations are also open and give space to the fact that we also have to arrange all this rhythm and such a foundation, prepare a springboard so that we...

They jumped up and built an organization together. So what is important in building such leadership?

Aga Six (11:50)
You know what, I guess I'd start with the fact that, and this is a rant I wrote to my closest CX manager, that I have a warm friend of mine who is a retired, high-ranking officer of the Norwegian Navy. And he sits with me like that one day, and you know what, Aga, you noticed

In the military, 95% of the time is spent practicing. Practice in English, right? And 5% on action, that is, on action. And of course it is natural that this is the balance, because a, we would not want it to be different, and b, as if the situation is quite extreme, as is already happening. But he looks at me like that and he says, and you noticed that there is 100% action in business? And this is this situation, this is Kasia, that's what you're talking about, that...

Such a young leader is promoted. He is even told verbally, declares that, yes, we know that now you have to learn and so on, but the goals are, the tasks are, the job is to be done. No one leaves room for that, to make mistakes even, well especially it is so obviously mega difficult here. And also, because we have a culture in Poland, unfortunately, a leader,

which means that I as the chief know, I as the chief know myself, I as the chief know myself, I as the chief know how to make decisions, I as the chief have the final say. So, unfortunately, we promote a little bit of this model of leadership management in very many organizations, which causes those people who do not know, do not know, to put on some kind of mask and armor.

and they start pretending, which causes frustration, because that's what you girls were saying about authenticity too. Well, this is most often incompatible with us, because a person is intelligent and has been promoted to a leadership position, and he realizes that most things he does not know. Well, a bit of a struggle begins and this often also leads to burnout, it leads to such moments when people say, moreover, I hear it more and more often, I no longer want to be a leader or a letter, well I have it, I come back as CI, that is, Individual Contributor and just...

No, I'm just not gonna do that job. Which is weak, because often these people have talent and sensitivity and probably sometimes they would be even more suitable, because they have at least reflections on the subject that they cannot cope.

Anna Piosik (14:25)
The question now is what, exactly, what does it come from and what to do about it?

Kasia Szczesna (14:26)
But what does it come from, girls?

Aga Six (14:33)
Well, this is due to such a model of becoming a leader, which has been repeated for years, since the post-communist transformation. Again, let's look at it historically. As we had a transformation, companies began to form, a mass of different...

foreign companies, well, it has advanced on the basis of a little potential, right? That is, such a group of leaders was formed, they had enough years and were in the right place. Unfortunately, that was the case, there is nothing to hide. And now those people who have never been trained themselves have never been taught what conscious leadership means, they have moved up and up, become bosses, become CEOs, and so on. And what were they doing? They promoted it

what happened to them. Well, again, they weren't doing it in some way that is, you know, mean, they were just promoting what they knew. And this is not at all unlikely, because I also often talk to different organizations and with different leaders, I see, very much, how I start to tell them about different things, how it shocks them, that it is like this, you know, I can almost see how they pray...

They pass through them, so to speak, because they become aware of things they never realized. AND... And really, what is crucial, returning girls to your question, is on the one hand to help high-ranking executive teams. Understand why this leadership is important and how to develop it. And if they want it, of course it's great, well it would be nice if they did too, but on the other hand too...

to stimulate these young leaders not to be afraid and not to be afraid to ask for space for this, for this development. Because you know, it is also often the case that Polish culture again, I got a leadership role, then I better sit quietly, because they will still take it away. This is also the next such model, a bit of a stereotype that happens a lot. So now it's also like mine would be a suggestion.

to ask for this space, but at the end of the day, in my opinion, the only...

A proven way to consciously develop this leadership is to experiment. So it is worth learning how to do consciously, I already used to, I mean in the book I talk about micro-experiments or small experiments, today I call them nanoexperiments. So, you know, you know, you know, you know, bear tears, change week to week, just to see.

What works, what doesn't. And if something does not work, it is to reject, and when something does, it is to do more of it. No.

Anna Piosik (17:35)
I think it is especially important in this situation of such uncertainty of change, because what you say is that often leaders say, I have had enough, I may not be suitable for this role, maybe I should return to my substantive role at all. I said that too, I said so too, but what does it mean? Because we not only have these challenges internally here in the team or in the organization, but in general what does the world look like, what does variability look like? There is also no one-to-one, as we get used to a certain style.

Aga Six (17:47)
Anna, I remember you saying that.

Anna Piosik (18:04)
He will be forever, he must change. And I think that's also the difficulty, because once the leader was the one, we used to say in previous episodes, it was the one who has the knowledge, the one who knows. And now it turns out that the leader may be the one who seeks, who also does not know. He needs to check them out too. And that, you talk about these experiments, it shows me that you can feel safe in the fact that I check something, whether it works for me with the team, if it works for me in this role, and it does not mean that I set it in stone and it will be forever.

I think we're taking the pressure off these leaders that he can modify his leadership at any time.

Aga Six (18:41)
I think, yes. You know what, I think, like you said about the fact that once a leader was the one of knowledge. Totally it was. Today, I think the leader is the one who knows how to ask good questions. That, like, I remember years ago I was still teaching at the School of Form, telling students about participatory design and so on and so on. I told you as such a little...

counterpoint on the design of Brasilia, which is today the capital of the country of Brazil. It was designed in such a modernist way. There the designer sat down, here he drew a bird, here the official district, here the residential district and so on and so on and so on. Well, and what did it turn out? It turned out that when the city was built, because it was built there in maybe 20 years, people generally came there to do away with work, but they left and lived in such places.

There was a mess in the villages and towns around Brasilia, and Brazilia de facto emptied itself at the end of the day and became such a dead city. And I'm just talking about it, I'm saying that's why participation is so important, because then, as you understand, such complex social systems, then it's much easier to design cities, because everything is much easier to design. And I say this designer, unfortunately I don't remember his name,

His name was New Mayer. and class ends, a group of students come up to me and they say, well, just like you talked about what we were checking, it's up to date on the internet and I don't know if you know, but he died this week, he was 103 years old. And you know what, and that's what I thought to myself, Anna, what you said about the fact that once a leader knew it was terrible, and I feel really bad for those leaders who think they need to know.

Because unfortunately, technology allows us to check absolutely everything. And if someone goes dark or someone doesn't know, they will catch him immediately and lose the respect of his team in a second. So it's not worth going into it at all, it's pointless.

Kasia Szczesna (20:47)
And you, Aga, didn't know that.

Anna Piosik (20:47)
So what?

I think that... Aha.

Kasia Szczesna (20:50)
But look, you know, I'm going to dress up a little bit in context, right? Because that's what's happening right now, my training experience yesterday, right? Strongly technological topics and being a substitute for topics, I don't know, behavioral, ethical, there are people who are much ahead of me technologically, unless I take tests and check and read and you know, I caught myself yesterday too, I said, listen, I don't know either.

to build it all together, we are not able to single out here once a KPI, two quickly some effective model in a few hours, but it will probably also work us for the next meeting, right? And maybe it doesn't hide my subjective assessment a bit, but it catches on with it, because you should know, you should read and listen and everything there, the whole list of, you know, wishes, as some people put, you know, these books by the bed.

And another thing, right? We here with Aga books, if anyone sees us, then he sees books, how many are there behind us too. Anna probably on the side. But listen, as in a business context, because it bothers me a little, because let's give ourselves time, let's have self-reflection, but you know, we probably have resistance to that too, we have people under us, we have organizations, these expectations, you know, I have a hard time understanding it, approach, but how in this situational context is actually putting together, when they tell us in advance, listen,

Time is getting less and less. Twist, twist the ranges, or twist those values that we have set for ourselves. As in this business context, when we have so much stress and pressure, or maybe listen, Anna, Aga, you see in companies that we actually have such space for it and we are able to build our role as a letter. What it looks like in a business context, listen up.

Aga Six (22:48)
Okay, so I'll start with this, first of all, a leader doesn't have to know everything. The leader is from the people, the people are from the content. I have such one, besides, today a man was very highly promoted, passed... The book came out in English and he bought it. He said, aga, I go through the whole book and what's more he wore it to work.

and he put in front of his spawn with a bookmark showing where he is and he said, listen, dear ones, there will be changes. And when he got to the chapter, I think this is the fifth chapter from what I remember, you see how I know my own book that I wrote, but this is the fifth chapter. He came to the chapter on managing his time and he also came to the chapter on diversity, they are connected there, that is, one by one they are. And it says, as I read this chapter, I opened the calendar,

I threw out all meetings, all of them and left only meetings with my people. Because he noticed that as a director, like he was at a meeting, you know, he threw a shadow of power over the meeting, right? So when something happened, the decision was made and it was necessary to do so. And as his men went and he was not at that meeting...

Well, that was no, well, if he doesn't make a decision, we're still in the process of making a decision. And he ended up in a situation where his people were frustrated because they didn't feel they had the agency, even though they were the ones making those decisions. He was simply flooded from morning to night with meetings that were completely meaningless, because in principle he should not be there. And for this he did not have time to deal with his people. And he said he did one thing. He cleaned his entire calendar, threw back meetings,

they either they or in some such smaller groups with his team and stated I lead my team. So he supported them to push, that is, he started teaching them how to influence the rest of the organization so that the organization would make a decision. Or he said, but I'm not the one to make those decisions, because you're the experts on the subject. Even if he is the best specialist in general, he does not know the details of the project, he does not understand why it is necessary...

I don't know, color the button green, not red, right? I'm exaggerating, but... But why is there an element here and not somewhere else? And it makes no sense for him to deal with it. And he said that it was such a qualitative change for him, but also for his team, who suddenly felt that...

that they have these titles, these experts, seniors and so on. They are, in fact, and they are not, you know, pawns a little, as on strings that need to be managed. The design team was, so they finally stopped feeling like makeup artists.

Anna Piosik (25:43)
And so I remember, we in the previous episodes with Kasia talked about this, the leader needs to step back a little.

to give people space to make decisions, to bring up topics, problems, ideas, and not just be the one who will come, as you said, overshadow the whole team with your halo of knowledge and power and basically for such a rune. Well, because we are not able to be everywhere, we are not able to be on every topic and in principle, if we even try them, then such micro-management is already done at all, then we cease to be a leader, such a manager of all topics.

Aga Six (26:17)
Yeah, exactly. No.

Kasia Szczesna (26:17)
But look, we can strengthen the motivation of these teams. The motivation, if we have committed employees, is that the organization and all HR departments are also happy if you do not have to fire up recruitment, so these costs can also be less. But I see, there are two sides, which I began to miss, somewhere I have found myself somewhere for several years, that responsibility for our own decisions, that sometimes we do not want to make and maybe it has its pros and cons, that on the one hand

responsibility, well, we have a certain burden on our shoulders, but on the other hand, if we have responsibility, it is also a certain motivation for us to act, but we also have agency, so as you talk about it, let this team strengthen too, but I also think in terms of what we produce, that we are not like that...

random decision of ours, is it just about putting some element on the screen, only we can actually delve into the problem than, okay, I'll say it and okay, I'm flying to the next meeting, another project, maybe we need to stop over this, so...

A nice thread has come true, that is, we have a leader who has to build, design his role, but on the other hand, what impact he has on this team is insanely important in what we talk about this leadership.

Aga Six (27:39)
Kasia, you know what, what you are saying will refer to the question you asked earlier, about these KPIs, that you have to prove, because this is also the consequence of all this, what happened in Poland, this leadership and so on, and so on, that young leaders rarely realize that they have the right to challenge the KPIs, that they are After that, it is also the role of a leader to understand what makes sense and what does not.

I'll give you an example. I worked with the organization, we did the strategy. You know, a strategy for a large organization, because they were in such a hurry to do this strategy, so they didn't have time to do this kind of strategic research before the strategy was prepared, so I said, you know, I shook my hooves and I said, I'm not going to sign on to this strategy unless it's tested with clients. Just don't. I'm not going to go to the president and say that this strategy is ready.

Moreover, she will write to him that she is not ready. Blackmail just, amazing. A joke, of course, it was not so much on the knife blade. And I'm talking to this research team, very cool anyway, because listen, we have to prepare a study, first we have to do a qualitative study, and then we have to do a quantitative one, because that's a strategy. This is a strategy for the next few years.

Well, you can't do it on the basis of, you know, random, small sample and so on. Well, of course the team says yes, you are absolutely right, we have started to prepare it. One of the key executives comes in and says, I want the results of this study in three weeks. And this band, you know, they just listen to each other and they come to me and they say, Aga, but we're not gonna make a fool of ourselves, what do we do? And I'm saying, listen, that's why you're leaders to go to these people and tell them...

not 3 weeks, only 3 months. Anyway, there is no option, to do... I mean, I mean, you can tell that I did this to you in 3 weeks, only it will be hopeless quality. Are you willing to take that risk in order to have research of hopeless quality? Well, and they went. This band went, they came back and it turned out that 3 months are. So again...

I don't talk about it like that either, here you know, throwing and saying no, we're not going to do it, you know, here I just don't know how a kid on the floor in a candy store can demand, but to find arguments and be able to negotiate in the organization the scope of activities and the pace of actions of his team. And of course, this is a negotiation, so you know, there is consensus and compromise.

And in general, the consensus is that everyone comes out equally unhappy. And you have to bring this situation a little bit so that everyone comes out equally unhappy. In this sense, indeed, we as leaders have to step down, but we also have to find some sort of golden mean in making things work in a way that is reasonable. Because I often have the impression in various organizations that goals are set a little, because nobody protests, because nobody discusses them.

And that if you come and discuss wisely and without emotions and without any tension there, a lot of things can be changed and fixed and that makes much more sense.

Anna Piosik (31:05)
but I also think that before you go and discuss, you also need to have some confidence in yourself and know a little about yourself. Or if I am able and what kind of story do I also tell myself and if with this story I am able to go and say yes, let's discuss, let's check. I immediately remembered something like that I once participated in such workshops, which were based on the author's program Brene Brown, Dirt to Lead. And there was a moment when...

We began to look at the confidence and the kind of kindness to each other, which consisted in the fact that we began to call and disarm these armor under the title of shame, under the title of fears, under the title I am insufficient. And suddenly it turned out that when you look at this, which is such very fundamental things and we start working with it, then all the other things like I go talk about KPIs, I speak up, I question something.

Oh, it just comes later, but we start with ourselves, what kind of story do I have there and where these armors of mine are and what are they that cause me to put my ears behind me, not go and question something, right? So again we come back to this, to this knowledge of ourselves, to this awareness of ourselves.

Aga Six (32:20)
100%, but that's not enough for me. Again, recently I was invited to such a meeting of women in one of the companies asking me to talk a little about leadership. Well, I just talked a little bit about how male leadership differs from female leadership and that it's not that we have more challenges.

We just have other challenges, because we have strengths in places where men have a little weaker, and gentlemen have stronger ones where we have weaker ones. So it's not like here someone won a lottery ticket, etc. Each of us gets tired extremely hard. And we started talking about, among other things, that we as women have such a tendency to take responsibility for things that are not ours.

that men are much better at saying, no this is not mine, I'm not going to deal with it. And at this meeting I have a girlfriend, again the director of the finance department, who says yes to me, says, you know what, we have this executive team to make decisions, some stirkko, something like that. There's me, there's the other woman, and there's the gentlemen themselves.

And in general, lately it has been going badly. And these gentlemen have found such a method that they're shifting all the responsibility onto the other headmistress. So they say that if something is delayed or something, it's her fault because she didn't do something. And she in such humility agrees to this, taking on tasks that should never have been hers. And this girl, the one who's at this meeting because the other one wasn't there, says what am I supposed to do? Because I'm defending her and saying it's not her fault and I'm going crazy.

I'm just going out to be an emotionally frayed chick who can't control herself in a meeting, so they laugh at her. So, you know, this is a pretty repetitive scenario, right? This is not the case, probably each of us can easily imagine it. And she tells me what should I do? I'm saying, look, the fact that you're defending her at a meeting is only weakening her.

you show that she is not able to cope, she needs someone, she also begins to have victim syndrome in her, because someone has to defend her. In my opinion, what I would do is leave her with this situation after such a meeting, after that meeting I would take her aside and say, look, I see something like this happening, do you want help in learning how to deal with such things. Because it is she who must establish her position in this group, and not someone behind her.

And this girl says, yes, smart, but how am I supposed to teach her, how am I supposed to help her? And I say, listen, if, for example, there's a meeting like this and you have repetitive scenarios, write down those scenarios and work through it beforehand. So take two more girls that you consider, put them as these directors at the meeting, let them shoot her and have her try different answers.

And in general it is something like this, a man who taught me leadership, taught me how important a meeting is and it is a difficult meeting and there is a significant meeting, then you have to prepare for it and you have to prepare for it on several levels. The first level is to tell myself what I am fighting for, which is my goal, what I want to leave with, what is the kind of thing that I will not give up for any treasures of the world. The second thing is what I give back.

Because, as I said, there is negotiation. The other side also wants to come out satisfied, the other side wants to win something too. So to realize already even that is amazing that it can't just be a victory on all fronts. The next thing is to tell yourself what kind of cuff I come with, what my mental model is, whether I come to fight, whether I come to talk, whether I see this person as an enemy, whether I see this person as...

an interesting adversary, whether I may see that person as a friend, or maybe I see it as a partner in some things. So also saying to yourself, realizing this, here I go back to what you said, consciousness itself, which is so mega crucial, but realizing what mental model I come with, solves a lot of things, because, for example, when I learned this, I realized that I come in a mental model from many different...

stories related to my childhood that someone will attack me in a moment. So I was always on the defensive. Which is pointless, because no one has attacked me yet, no one has said anything yet, no one has said that I am wrong, and I already know, already claws put out there, fangs, chipped and here I defend my position. And finally, the last thing is to tell yourself how I want to handle it. It's... I'm laughing today, you know if I'm coming in as a researcher,

so, for example, I ask questions, do I come as a coach to lead, if I come as a moderator, etc., etc. etc., well, as designers, we have here, you know, the full range of possibilities of what role we can come in. And at the moment when I come, for example, I had this situation yesterday, we had a completely non-leadership meeting, but there was a recorded meeting where the girl wanted certain things to sound.

Anna Piosik (37:29)
Hmm.

Aga Six (37:46)
I, of course, could have told her, and you forgot to tell her, you forgot to tell her, but I said, no, I'm going to put myself in the role of a person who doesn't know. And I put myself in that role, I say, look, and could you explain it any more, and could you explain it? And you know, she shone because she could show how great she is and what answers she has here for everything. I got what was needed, what was supposed to sound like and everyone was happy at the end of the day.

Anna Piosik (38:11)
And I'm smiling.

Kasia Szczesna (38:12)
And see how this awareness, and not so... It also came out strongly through all the episodes and here I think there was, I don't know, already a record amount of this awareness. That reminds me of Jung's quote, doesn't it? Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will guide your life, and you will call it destiny, right? And you know, and on the one hand... How do we talk about this design, actually for these meetings and you can approach the design to prepare the scenarios, yes? What is our goal, direction.

of our project and what actually, where we can meet these barriers that can most likely sting us somewhere, And we, reworking this situation, can completely shift these emotions somewhere slightly to the side. I'm not saying that there won't be these emotions at the meeting, but it will already somehow remake this situation, interesting, interesting thing, But what are you telling and Anio here you have some interesting thread for sure.

Anna Piosik (39:07)
Yes, yes, because I was still smiling as Aga talked about how to prepare, what is important in this preparation for meetings. Then I have such a hearty fellow coach and a quiver who says, each has its own push-ups.

You have your push-ups and, for example, the customer has his push-ups. And sometimes we sit down right at some place there discussing some project, which we do and I tend to do it too, because I probably have to, because I will take so many things as my responsibility, it is always him, wait, whether it is your push-ups or you are definitely doing your push-ups. So that sets me up very nicely, because in fact, I think that women also have a little bit more.

that they rush to the rescue, they rush to the rescue, and especially where they see that the deadline may already be broken or something will not be proven, it is in the name of simply making this project go, so that it is realized and in the name of quality, then I will do it for someone. And it helps me a lot, as from time to time we just make these meetings like our training and we discuss the project with the client, when I hear it, if they are definitely two helpers.

Aga Six (40:14)
You know what else I will add to this Ana, because you just hit a point when it comes to women and also it sounds like we have this tendency to save the situation, motherhood and so on and you just have to learn it, well what to hide here a lot. We're brought up like this, we had these patterns, those patterns live in us, so they're there, you know, basically who's going to pick up the glasses or who's bringing the tea to the meeting, right? Well, it's just me, I remember in the first meetings, when I realized that no, that I shouldn't, and...

Anna Piosik (40:36)
Of course.

Aga Six (40:42)
You know, I worked in tech, so mostly guys and me, I just kept off the back so I wouldn't get up. You know, my legs were already just going for that tea or water or whatever. Exactly, that's what I'm still learning to this day.

Anna Piosik (40:54)
or taking on responsibilities, that too.

Aga Six (40:59)
But I have one more such thought. It's also in this book that I mega recommend to all girls, which is called Don't Cut Your Wings. I don't like books written for women, and I think this one is great. Anyway, there is also a male version, unfortunately not yet translated into Polish, which is called What got you here is not going to get you there. this is exactly how these problems that we as women have are described there.

The latter talks about what problems men have. And I really, really highly recommend both of these books to anyone who would be interested. Anyway, there's one thing this author writes about Sally, I never remember her name. On H. And she writes there at some point that we as women tend to take the blame. So when something happened...

and something went wrong, we are there, you know, total rumination, my fault, not suitable for a leader, I put the topic and so on and so on. And I also have a friend who I mentored for many, many years, who is now a very high-ranking person in a large organization and says, you know what, I once had such a situation that we had a strategic meeting there, very important.

with the president and so on and so forth. And this meeting went very badly. It was prepared by her colleague. He was the host of that meeting. The meeting went badly. But you know, if you think that the meeting is a failure, then add more plus 10 or maybe plus 100. She will give me the details, of course I can't tell you, but then it went really bad. Including the fact that the president...

practically I think he came out of that meeting, said that he was wasting his time and so on. And she calls this friend, or does she write to him there and say, look, this meeting went so badly, can I help you somehow? Rapping, mumbling, can I help you somehow, so that, I don't know, do something to, as if yes, to fix this whole situation. And he is not Polish, foreign, yes.

He listens, listens and listens, listens and says. You're right, this meeting went badly. What a mess.

Kasia Szczesna (43:23)
Dot.

Aga Six (43:25)
Yeah, he didn't take any of it on himself. He said, yeah, what a mess. What a mess it came out of. Dot.

Kasia Szczesna (43:34)
But I'm wondering, Aga, what you're saying is like taking a break, sometimes not letting it go, right? You know, let go of this whole situation, sometimes let it go its own way, right? And here we save the situation right away.

Aga Six (43:47)
That's one thing. The second thing is that there is no option for all meetings to work out for us. There is no option for us to always be 100% prepared. I also have a leader like that, by the way, from the same organization that was doing my leadership course on the basis of a book and who told me, you know what, Aga, I realized after all this that...

Anna Piosik (43:47)
Yes.

Aga Six (44:12)
I don't have to be 100% prepared all the time because, you know, she was sitting at night preparing materials and stuff and so on and also in a relationship, no, I can come 50% prepared and most likely in 95 cases that will be enough.

Anna Piosik (44:25)
But it is also an art to get to such a moment and to such a place, because in turn, here I will also throw a small book recommendation in the book Plain Big. Again, I don't remember Tara anything either. I don't have a memory for names at all, but she runs leadership programs just for women and one thing she notices is that we women, mostly because men I think so, but most women do, we have this inner voice.

Kasia Szczesna (44:38)
We click, listen, we will find under the recordings, everything will be found.

Anna Piosik (44:53)
that tells us that you are insufficiently certain, insufficiently prepared, insufficiently competent, perhaps not yet something. And that is why, for example, we are not speaking out and therefore we are not going to propose our position of a solution, or we will be more so restrained, conservative in decisions, because that voice dominates us there.

Someone already comes to such a point where Taaga says that I can be 50% prepared, that is, he has done a nice job on himself, because he is already in another place and can act despite this voice, despite this criticism.

Aga Six (45:27)
Yes.

Anna Piosik (45:44)
and I will continue reading.

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Aga Six (45:52)
But recently a friend just wrote me, I don't know if you know the name, Indie Young, she writes books about empathy and so on, very cool, I highly recommend all her books to all researchers who study the deep needs of their clients. And she wrote me that, because I wrote something there, that I was afraid of some presentation or something, that I felt such a slight tremor.

And she texted me, Aga, don't worry, just sociopaths don't feel cheating syndrome.

Kasia Szczesna (46:28)
And I think with that sentence we will close this meeting and I think maybe that will be the title of this episode. We'll see!

Aga Six (46:36)
hehehehe

Anna Piosik (46:37)
which naturally came out.

Kasia Szczesna (46:37)
I'm not very comfortable talking to you, but I'm also listening, so I hope this isn't the last episode. Even though Ania and I want to close this leadership series, but I'm very happy that Aga also agreed to accept the invitation to talk and close this series, but maybe Anna also has some ideas on how to continue it, so...

I would like to end our meeting, with a smile like we did with that last sentence. Unless you want to sum up one sentence like that for people who are entering this role or struggling right now, at such, you know, at a crossroads. What could we leave with those of our leaders who have a question mark in their heads with such one, two sentences?

Aga Six (47:24)
I'm not the one to give the task, just the exercise. Do you have the girl a glass on hand? Take that glass. I have a stone because I don't have a glass.

Anna Piosik (47:31)
We have. I have.

Kasia Szczesna (47:34)
You know what, when you see my mug on vacation?

Aga Six (47:37)
Well wonderful! Take it and hold it. And also if someone listens to us, take a glass, preferably one full of water or tea or whatever, and hold it. Now hold 50% less.

Anna Piosik (47:56)
Ha ha

Aga Six (47:59)
Something happened?

Kasia Szczesna (48:03)
My... era of bad luck.

Anna Piosik (48:03)
Well, at most it can fall out for us.

Aga Six (48:05)
And it's about holding on, about doing less, about letting go of certain things, because leaders will get hung up, because they want to do everything at 100%. It's not possible.

Anna Piosik (48:16)
It's not possible. And finally, I will just say that becoming a leader or designing your leadership is a process and if someone likes this arrangement, I sometimes like such a framework, then it's worth, Aga, to reach for your book, because there really you can also calm down so that it can be done step by step, and not throw yourself at everything with such a thought, I will not advise that this is normal.

Kasia Szczesna (48:17)
Always good.

and that this is normal. Listen, I thank you very much for this conversation, and I am sure that those who listen to this will find inspiration, not only from books, but from the kind of further action or thoughts, this self-reflection that we have been talking about. Once again, thank you very much and our listeners for making it to this end of our conversation. Good day, thank you again. Hi.

Anna Piosik (49:05)
Thanks.

Aga Six (49:06)
Thanks for the invitation, I am always happy to talk more about it, because as you can see I am passionate about it.

Anna Piosik (49:13)
The subject is inexhaustible. Thanks so much, until today!

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