24: What does it mean to be a leader these days?

Kasia Szczesna (00:05)
Hello, good morning. Today's episode is the start of a series of conversation podcasts on the topic of leadership. We want, we want together here to introduce you to our guest, we want to try to answer a question or make you reflect, but also to start a conversation with us. So today we want to ask ourselves what it really means to be a leader these days.

And for this conversation and series of these episodes, I invited a special guest, Anie Piosik. Hello Anya!

Anna Piosik (00:38)
Hi Kasia, thanks for the invitation.

Kasia Szczesna (00:41)
Tell our listeners and female listeners a few words about yourself and what you do.

Anna Piosik (00:47)
On a daily basis, I work as a trainer, consultant, workshop facilitator. and I work directly with leaders or their teams. And basically I have these two areas that I support leaders. The first is related to the development of leadership competencies, soft competencies. I sometimes work with a leader or with an aspiring leader and their team.

but I also support leaders already so directly in business projects related to customer experience. So in short, I see this leader in both a business context and a development context.

Kasia Szczesna (01:25)
I am glad, you know that we have a topic that we actually planned for a few episodes and I think that this topic needs to be taken care of, but also such an open discussion. I think our conversations will be more opening than indicative of what actually, how we should live on this topic. But Anna, how can we be that leader when our organizations need it?

However, we have this kind of negative impression of our market, these layoffs that are happening, which are sometimes twice as high as the layoffs of other workers too. And that's why I'd like to ask you today just how to be that leader in today's world. So I think we're going to start opening up generally on the surface, and I think we're going to go down gradually. How do you see it from your perspective?

Anna Piosik (02:23)
Yeah, well, I think it's definitely such a broad discussion and a multi-threaded discussion. And I'll be honest, I guess it's not easy being a leader these days, because on the one hand, what you're saying is layoffs. Layoffs like the big, group ones we saw last year.

layoffs, especially leadership of various levels, slimming companies, especially technology companies, flattening the structure. So you can see that this is a trend that moves away from the traditional managerial role of the leader, but in exchange for that there should be a new role. I also think that this leader, stays, those leaders who have stayed in organizations, especially in those organizations affected by layoffs, do not have it easy at all and often they are and...

they are overworked and have a lot of challenges, and at the same time sometimes there is less space to mentor, to develop people and to develop themselves, so I think this is such a difficult moment. There's even a Forbes study that says that 85% of managers are currently experiencing burnout, so there's something about it that it's hard to be a leader right now and this is probably a bit of a transformational moment for that role.

Kasia Szczesna (03:44)
and we started a little bit with a high C and with a bit of a negative connotation like that, but I think you need to make it clear what's going on, as you say also cites research. We are talking about burnout here, about the load, yes? We're down from the number of managers. OK, too, we see the negative impact of this management more than once, but perhaps we should address a little redefinition of what this leader actually means.

Yes to us and what exactly can this be a question rather than my claim. What qualities and skills does this leader really need today because we are talking about changes about sudden changes and yet these structures also require new needs and we also have to respond with competencies. As you can see from this page what are actually the characteristics of skills competencies.

He should have a leader today.

Anna Piosik (04:47)
I guess I'll tell you that there is no one perfect leader. I would say that a leader is a bit like a tailor who has to tailor his leadership style to suit, depending on the needs and the team and the needs of the organization, the type of organization in general, but also very strongly in response to his predisposition, to his style.

functioning or communicating, so it is not that we can give some one recipe and one definition and it will be adequate for everyone. It is precisely this difficulty in being a leader, that building a leader is a bit of a process of change, a bit of a process of transformation and self-determination.

Kasia Szczesna (05:35)
Yeah, you know what, I think as you're talking about it, these are also huge challenges and what you cited and I'm actually going to use the sources that we gathered here before, but that also required us to prepare, and here I quote according to the Society for Human Resources Management, in addition to changing positions, 66% of executives in the last six months have also lowered their salaries.

So these challenges are related not only in this work environment, working with people, but also in relation to our standards of living. Going further, Anna, what are these challenges? What challenges do leaders face now in our

Anna Piosik (06:20)
I think a whole lot. In general, I would say that these are such times, on the one hand, fascinating, and on the other, extremely demanding for the leader. Because the leader is still responsible for the people, for the result and for that, so to speak colloquially, driving, that is, achieving their goals, making targets, KPIs, but on the other hand

Kasia Szczesna (06:24)
Let's get started.

Anna Piosik (06:47)
has these challenges and the need to be open, ready for what is coming, for what is new. It's kind of balancing on the line. Well, where do we start? Well, I think I would start with technology, with technological acceleration, with the fact that we all say artificial intelligence, what gives benefits but also risks. But I would look at it from a different angle, because technological acceleration means that we now have an extremely high growth of information.

which causes us to have such a need to learn quickly, but also to choose areas in which we specialize and in which we keep up with trends. this is such, I think from the point of view of a leader, a change in the paradigm of a leader in general, because once a leader was the one who knew best. The leader, by virtue of his knowledge, his experience, was an authority, that last instance that undertook the most difficult

and of course he was also such a giver of knowledge. On the other hand, now it loses that role a little, because in the team there are people who know more in certain topics, they are experts in certain topics precisely because this technological acceleration makes it no longer possible to be good in everything and keep up in all aspects. And this is very difficult I think. It's a big challenge to find yourself in this role and in general who you are now in the role of leader, when you're no longer the one

The highest level of knowledge and authority.

Kasia Szczesna (08:17)
I would stop here, because it is also a thread so deep in the perspective of the person, the personality, that is, we have the thread of the ego and how the leaders were, they gained experience, how they were taught all this and what you touch, this change of attitude and your own person is very difficult, as you say, the manager, the leader knew better, and at that moment

Anna Piosik (08:28)
Mhm.

Kasia Szczesna (08:45)
I think what I also see in teams and companies is that we need to have these interdisciplinary teams. We are not capable of possessing knowledge and that legal, psychological, technological, creative, yes? Yet to be the person who is actually that leader encouraging work, collaboration and yet problem solving, yes? So we have a whole lot of topics, areas to take care of and we have just a few hours a day.

Yes?

Anna Piosik (09:16)
Yes. And here I think you got to the point, because when I work with leaders, I hear from them, but I have to be everywhere, but I have to take care of everything, but I have to prompt and make decisions, and on the other hand they tell me, but how do I have to give a little to this operational part, to take care of the strategy, to take care of the development, to also think about the team in such a way In the long term, in the long term. And that's exactly what you're saying, which is giving

So accepting that I don't have to be everywhere, that as a leader doesn't mean that I always have to know the best, always be there for every decision.

Kasia Szczesna (09:57)
And see, as we continue this topic, we have to somehow let go, which is not easy either, because usually we also go, we do more, we experience more, we learn more, there are more of these tasks on our boards, but on the other hand there is also a question of a certain trust, that we put the work in the hands of people whom we trust so de facto and we want them to continue most likely part of our challenge, of our work.

So we have a whole lot in this technological world and such developmental aspects, I would say, interpersonal, communication, conversations. I think communication here for the leader is key. She also scrolls around us here a lot on podcasts and just like you say, as you talk to them, sometimes it's just a conversation or and all the way to hear yourself and start in depth

to approach the subject rather than just walking, growing, maybe you have to stop and think about how to do it so that you can let go of some things.

Anna Piosik (11:07)
Yeah, and I think leaders have a lot of that dose of uncertainty. How am I supposed to proceed now? What should I let go of and where should I be in the role of leader? And that communication you're talking about is actually crucial. In particular, here comes another challenge of course. We are already used to different work models after the pandemic. For hybrid work, for remote work.

for instant messaging, for online meetings. We are already well trained, but it still turns out that the biggest difficulty is communication with a person. But the leader leads the people. The leader still has to motivate people, inspire them, build this sense of belonging, a sense of psychological security. And now how to do it in these new models, in new conditions, when it still does the same thing as

but differently and in other circumstances. And that's the most I hear. Communication, communication, that's what we need. In this we need to practice, develop. This becomes, you might say, the heart of building a new role.

Kasia Szczesna (12:18)
And you know, I see this thread, so you say, and I see this outer and inner part, yes? So we have inside, that is, our own peace and our own management of ourselves, energy, stress, yes? Also with a certain level of anxiety, associated with such challenges and responsibilities. And the second thing is the challenge of managing people, who we also want to give some sense of security, but what you said, we have a big

uncertainty and on the one hand as I do not know I look from a behavioral angle so we like to know where we are going, we like to know what is ahead but we no longer have this encyclopedia book that we have, I don't know from the point we know how to get from point A to Z we at this moment we sometimes wonder how to go from point A to B and these are also some slaloms of this challenge just so I would go back to the topics it's such welfare maybe

Anna Piosik (13:13)
Mhm.

Kasia Szczesna (13:13)
which is also important for companies and I see from my perspective that this topic is growing, just how to take care of this topic well, because we often talk about it and practice goes its way, as you see from this perspective

Anna Piosik (13:23)
Mhm.

Yes,

That's just before I beg for welfare, I'll address what you said about this uncertainty, because that's another thing I hear that I see among leaders. In fact, we live in a time of uncertainty, in this world that we call the VUCA world, in this uncertain, complex world, which causes the leader to be ready and open to change, to the new, to adapt to the new, and on the other hand he must be a buffer.

for his team. He must take care of relieving these tensions, whether fears or insecurities in the team. And that's what you've touched, which is that well-being. So before I take care of the team and before I bring that peace there and take care of that psychological safety, I have to take care of myself. It's a bit like on a plane, isn't it? First we put on an oxygen mask, and later we serve.

We tell the child, it is a little the same in the team, the leader must first take care of his well-being, his sense of confidence and also such adaptation to the fact that it will not be otherwise, we will live in these changes and such more frequent and intense times, and how I find this balance will translate very much into how I will work with the team later.

Kasia Szczesna (14:53)
And see, we are just touching on the subject of such balancing, a little bit of professional life with work. You also touched on the thread of the hybrid, where this life of ours also penetrates. You know, I'm thinking about how to help, of course, and what questions to ask for reflection in terms of how we can in this...

time and not on time or in the meantime, once in a meeting, we just got a question from one of the employees, and what is this in the meantime? What does it mean to do in the meantime, when we have to switch between tasks and emotions also related to team meetings, underestimated project time, because that also just happens to us. I wonder how we can show these leaders some kind of signpost.

direction, perhaps in some way indebted to each other. Perhaps she had something that would give us room for reflection. He realizes that we are different and we need different things, but as organizations, I will go a little higher, I hope they will hear it from companies that have leaders and want to take care of them. How can we just do so from the verb side of this well-being in the company?

Given the leadership. Maybe you have some suggestions here.

Anna Piosik (16:22)
I might start with something a little unobvious, about building a certain attitude and a certain willingness to take care of yourself. That is, to go a little out of that tone, to think only about results, to think about efficiency, to think about KPIs, and to notice that this side related to well-being, with emotions, with that sense of security

It is equally important in the development of teams and in the development of leaders. That is, if we balance this strong, business, efficiency side with this emotional side, then we already have the first point done. And those organizations that introduce such a culture, talking about the fact that for us it is also important. And all the actions they take are to prove that it is important to us. We want to give that space, that consent and that permission. This is already a huge step.

I also often tell leaders that if they begin to change it as their identity, that is, to also find this time or that time for their well-being, then it is worth starting from the first step, from which the change begins at all, that is, with awareness, basically self-awareness. And here I would ask myself, what makes you...

The biggest difficulty. How do you feel now in this system or in the kind of work model you have? It's important to see what we need, what's important to us. Also to see what natural predisposition we have when it comes to the style of functioning, about the style of management. Because the more awareness we have in ourselves, when we feel good, what style suits us, what we cannot

what is important to us, and where we can look for these areas, for example, to find this in the meantime on benefits, is already a great step to start differently later, or to plan tasks for ourselves, or to let our employees into such a partnership in action, which means,

I will find this interim well-being when I have a team that follows me and that goes with

Kasia Szczesna (18:52)
This leadership, this well-being is not only so... It's interesting that you asked that question, right? To notice yourself in this moment, right? Get up and stop running a little bit, right? Because it is also important to stop. But self-awareness I think is not easy, is it? Although one word should clean up the whole situation here and give an answer, I wonder how

once I stop and I have a thought somewhere in my head that we also see others around us, maybe some community of leaders, maybe support, you know everyone will guess, I will say mentoring, but even if it is not mentoring or it is not coaching, but sometimes the other person, maybe the other leader can show us that it is also possible and I think about such a support group often about leaders

Here he will make such a hypothesis, but I think from the observation of the visa they are alone in these activities and on this colloquially speaking battlefield.

Anna Piosik (20:02)
Yeah, definitely. I think this is a cool lead and anyway you can see it from the inquiries of companies. More and more often there is a leader's academy, a manager's academy, or some kind of leader development program. Why? Because it is this group work that works best. First, in a group we can actually look at others, so it's not just that I have a problem with it, it's not just that I start to doubt myself or I feel insecure, it's not just that I don't know.

how here to reconcile that part of the business and taking care of the result with wanting to have a motivated team that develops and so on. that by working in a group, we can see different perspectives, different experiences, also calm down a little that we have similar and the second thing you say is that great support. This support comes from sharing knowledge,

We also failed to share such successes, we did not succeed in these cases and what then, which is simply the so-called case fuck-ups. On the other hand, I think that in such a group the development process works better in general, because everything that we learn, whether about communication skills, giving feedback, or looking for these ways to build well-being, to build psychological security,

it works best for us if we can relate it to other people, which is to see how others use it or how they want to apply it or how we can practice it in a group. And then it gives such extra reinforcement to the leader that he practices in safe conditions, in such safe comfort conditions, where he is not judged by his team, where he has other leaders who are also on this development path and also trying...

sort of get on that trajectory of these changes and plan your own style for yourself.

Kasia Szczesna (21:59)
And see Ana, so we talk about, I would say, sublime things, leadership, organizations, technology, but we touch on the very psychological foundations that we need that security and we turn to people too, so that we also not only have cool AI assistants, but also the support of a person who doesn't always have to be our supervisor, just a leader who

people in a similar position with similar problems most likely and as you say in these safe conditions we can practice certain scenarios, certain situations and going further I think that we can also fix, if you can say so, our mental state more than once, which here we also started with this thread, that is, with professional burnout or leading to depression, which also takes place.

And on the one hand, you can say how you can bring yourself to such a state, but leaders are ambitious and it is known from research that people who also often suffer from depression are people who are ambitious and they are professionals. We usually see these individuals as being very strong and operative. Therefore, I am wondering here how to reconcile this very thread, when

Anna Piosik (23:02)
No.

Kasia Szczesna (23:22)
aspect of our mental health, OK, we need to lift it. The second thing is that these layoffs are, and if you already call us somewhere out there that these layoffs are coming, then we try to take care of what? Sure about the result, right? Than that good state of our head and I wonder how to reconcile it. Have you had this situation or do you see maybe...

some part that we could touch on in this regard, because this is probably such a very popular case, I also take it from the perspective of my own observations and conversations, because there is not one book on what to do with it and one nice article.

Anna Piosik (23:54)
Mhm.

Mhm.

Yes, it has one article, there is no single recipe. Anyway, I also think that the leader is also a man, that is, in the end, we look at ourselves as a person anyway. Besides, I worked in business for many years, in this hard part of business and also in leadership roles, so now that I work with letters, I know their world and I just feel

and the pressure they have, whether to choose a result or choose a team and what to do in such a crisis, or in the perspective of, for example, layoffs, but also how to take care of themselves. And here I would say that there is really no such thing that we can give some clear guidelines and clear instructions. I'm sure it's such a...

such a matter of being authentic in this, we do. It means, however, to follow your values very strongly in the end. However, this partnership approach, coaching in leadership style and empathic approach works very well, because the more we take care of this soft part of the team, but also at home, the part related to emotions, with anxiety.

the more we will also influence the result. So, as if I were to bet on what to choose in such a difficult situation, I would say, let's choose this person and choose this emotional layer to take care of it first, and really the result, efficiency and what we also care about, it will be a derivative of how much work we put into this soft part.

Kasia Szczesna (25:57)
Yes, that also coincides with my next question. A lot of things here are related to just such support, help, because I myself am also looking for an answer to it and I think that many people watching even well-known social networks, more business, where we are looking for exactly this answer as leaders help. And I would like to ask you this, because we are already on this thread even in your

What we can do today and how to help leaders, but also organizations, to build this role of the leader of the future. As you can see here, what else could be mentioned to help with this

Anna Piosik (26:41)
I think a lot of organizations in general are already making such efforts to help the leader, so you can see that a little bit of what we said before, that this is a time to sort of change this role of leader and a lot of organizations are saying, yes, we want to bet on helping the leader. How? As if on different tools and in different ways.

Of course, on the one hand, giving knowledge and giving tools, how you can do it better, how you can help yourself, but on the other hand what you have said when building such communities of leaders, hence more and more often it is group work in the form of some programs, academies or working groups in order to feel supported, to practice in such a group, to practice and to check how others are doing.

But it is also often psychological support, and mentoring support, in order to be with this leader when he takes on challenges, when he is already going to the team in his practice and to check how well I am doing in a given challenge. So it told me that the more comprehensive the action for the leader, the better and taking care of

layers of the leader, not only knowledge, only skills, practices, but above all about this psychological layer and about being in a group, that is, so that the leader is not alone, so that he can relate his experiences, fears to the group, so that he can also get such support directly. This is the peer group that understands me best. And I think that's the most important thing. And so, anyway, these development programs for leaders are being built more and more often.

Kasia Szczesna (28:24)
And if you could see a nice thread here, development programs just, and if we went into one, to find one somewhere at the end, such a concretik, or some tools that you could propose, I'm talking in general, how I work with leaders, if there is something that you actually work with precisely in the form of a tool that helps groups, leaders in the process of coaching, mentoring.

Anna Piosik (28:40)
Mhm.

Most often, when I work with leaders who say that we want to change something, we feel that what we have acted as a leader so far is no longer adequate to the needs of the team. Then again I return to the same awareness, to recognize my strengths, my talents, my natural predisposition. And here I very often propose the Gallup test.

and recognition of their talents. I will honestly say that I once, as I passed the magnifying glass test several times, it was always very revealing for me, how much it gives me knowledge, how much it gives me such awareness, which later can be very easily translated into building your own style, leadership style. Surely a good tool is the Inside Discover tests, which will convince you of this,

and we have a style of functioning, communication, decision-making related to color energy. This is the kind of knowledge that builds consciousness. It's kind of what I was saying, the more self-awareness we have at the beginning, the easier it is for us to go one step further to determine for ourselves how I can build a leadership style that is in harmony with me. It's also about being authentic in being a leader, because then we are effective.

Kasia Szczesna (30:09)
And I think that these tools, like us working together in Design Mentorship, in terms of talents, later also have an impact and we also transfer it to our employees, people, teams, how we communicate. So I think it's not just a value so positive for the individual as a leader that we're emphasizing somewhere here, but the organizational and team value, so I'm glad,

Anna Piosik (30:31)
Absolutely.

Kasia Szczesna (30:36)
We also have a small one, maybe concrete at the end. I think it is familiar to people, but perhaps it is also some form of refreshment, so that not only did I gallop 10 years ago, but perhaps precisely with these changes, changes of this leader, perhaps we should return to this, to the report, to the wailing, to perhaps to the cooperation.

Anna Piosik (30:53)
Mhm.

Yeah, and think about how to use that gallop, because sometimes I say, okay, get this test, this gallop report somewhere out of your files, but start using it and start translating it into team work.

Kasia Szczesna (31:04)
Oh, yeah.

Exactly, exactly. I think I mentioned that on the podcast as well. It is one thing to do this research, another to understand, and the third to use it. So I'm talking from an autopsy, I started using it myself only after my sessions. That's what I think I understood, but it was hard for me to get to that noun to verb to start working with it. I think that today's

Anna Piosik (31:23)
Exactly.

Kasia Szczesna (31:42)
going very much into the topic in general, but also going into things that touch the inner context of the leader, here too we have outlined this self-awareness, development, cooperation, work and cooperation with others and we would like to invite you here slowly ending to your own reflection, to ask yourself questions, but also if you have questions

to us, it is here under the recording that we will also leave room to ask this question. It will also be the form when our sessions, these three recording sessions and the next fourth, that's how we have planned, but let's see where it takes us to conduct a conversation session with Ania here in the context of your questions, so we encourage you to ask them, but also answers and this question just what it means to you

leader, leadership these days, so hopefully it will be a small, small stir for us to get into the level of conversation and our own experiences. And Ana, I think we can end this, that you would also like to end with maybe a question, some kind of clasp here is our discussion today.

Anna Piosik (33:02)
So I think here is a good time to put a stop and perhaps also leave with the question of what it means to me to be a leader today. I also encourage you to take up this discussion, to leave your reflections, your thoughts, and then to share a little more widely. We'll be able to use that in this session, just like you said

Kasia Szczesna (33:23)
Exactly. Thank you very much to Ana for today's conversation, reflections, sharing her own experience and such insight into how she cooperates with leaders. Especially since we all ask ourselves certain questions and are looking for answers, so I hope this will also be an inspiring conversation and one that will give some direction to people who are struggling with this as well. But I also encourage you, because as I mentioned, this is a series

The next episodes will be here in August-September, so I invite you to our website .designmentorship.pl, where we will have information about the next sessions, the next conversations and as I mentioned, I invite you to ask questions, to answer, so that we can build this series of episodes on the topic of leadership together. Thank you very much and see you. Thank you, hi.

Anna Piosik (34:19)
Thanks to Kasia. I'll hear you, thanks.

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